An Unquiet Mind - Latest Comments in Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

SS — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 17:33:44 -0000

M, just wanted to let you know that I have forwarded your feedback about the comment policy to BlogHer.
Meanwhile, let's keep writing and discussing :)

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

sakshi — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 11:59:04 -0000

Mr.Mahendra
We can't actually comment on the judgement as it has two sides.While we see the negative effects that their is no guarantee that while the child,whose in the womb of a child(referring to the girl) will b well taken care of..she is unaware of the precautions she should take during her pregnancy she doesnt even knows what child birth is like more over the pain of child birth will add to her ill mental condition..flip side aborting the child against her will can b futile to her again..why kill a life when someone can takecare of the child so there is no end to the discussion now the decision has been taken let nature takes it care....i rally appreciate all of your efforts that we all our so concerned about the poor one....

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

Mahendra — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 21:12:40 -0000

Snigdha,

SC Judgements are available online here. I spent more than an hour searching for this one, but couldn't find it as I think it is not online yet.

I too am happy wherever I could find society engaged in meaningful discussion, but I must confess it was a bit rare. As I mentioned in my post, most general public opinion I've seen is simply dismissive of the SC judgment. What is heartening is that they are voicing their opinions on this tragedy, meaning they are concerned about this unfortunate girl and her to-be-child, which is a welcome break in the Bollywood-caste-politics-cricket-religion-obsessed nation of ours.

The comment policy is not an issue of cumbersomeness but of principle and willingness. The web has moved to open standards, and most websites allow visitors to choose different authentication mechanisms to avoid spammers. In the blog world, Blogger IDs, Email, and Open ID are usually sufficient for sites to filter out bots and spammers. If each self-hosted blog site started requiring registrations, it would become unwieldy and hence is considered a bad practice. However, I will still relook at BlogHer since I think there are many wonderful women bloggers there like you. :)

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

SS — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 19:31:34 -0000

Mahendra,
Good to know you are feeling better now.
I have no illusions about how long it must have taken you to put this post together. I too had to read several news stories before I could get a fairly clear picture of what was going on.
I wished we could have some direct access to court records online.
Yes, it was a complex case and from reading reports, it appeared to me that both the courts made a sincere effort to protect the woman and her rights.
I am actually happy to see society engaged in a meaningful discussion -- however divisive to address the issue of inclusiveness.

Thank you for stopping by at BlogHer and reading my post. Appreciate the comment.
[About the comment policy on BlogHer, I did not realize it was that problematic. I know they have a registration policy to track traffic/readers, but I thought it was fairly simple. Nita signed on to it too.
Anyhow, if it's too cumbersome, let me know.]

Keep writing. :)

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

Mahendra — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 08:45:02 -0000

Snigdha,

First, thank you. This subject invokes such strong passions and opinions, that you were actually the first to comment on how I've structured my post. It was a difficult one to write, given the complexity and profoundly grave topic, to be balanced as much as possible.

I think you have done a very good post as well. I can see the effort to be as comprehensive as possible. I am not commenting directly on your post because the site requires a separate registration for commenting. I don't think you have missed anything.

The Supreme Court of India is one of the institutions which has retained my highest respect. And when it overturns a HC order, it is certainly worth deep thought. As you can see from the comment thread above, I have also gravitated towards supporting the SC's decision, while understanding the rationale behind the HCs order at the same time.

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

SS — Fri, 07 Aug 2009 15:05:46 -0000

Mahendra,
You've done an excellent job in laying out the whole case here. I came upon your post while looking for what bloggers are saying about this so I can include that in my post.

Phew! What can I say. If I start here, I'll land up saying more than the original post :)

I'll keep it short. After reading the case in as much detail as possible, I feel both the courts did a fair job of handling the case and both had the best interests of the girl in mind. Some people have tried to make this into the American argument of pro-life vs pro-choice. I don't agree. Both the courts focused on the girl and not the child. It's clearly pro-choice.

Given how complicated the facts are, they made a sincere attempt to deal with it.

In my readings of other blog posts, I find that a lot of rage is misdirected because many didn't have all the facts of the case. The more I read it, the less anger I have towards the courts.

Anyhow...if u get a chance and time, do read my post and let me know if I missed anything.

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

sakshi — Thu, 06 Aug 2009 12:55:35 -0000

hey guys,Iam a child development student i ws told to present a report on wot ppl's opinons bout d judgement...but its really ironical dat ol,ol of youy ppl , d society d supreme court evry1 discussing bout d girl's pregnancy and its a big big issue now...and under this huge hipe noone remebers dat d poor girl with a 9 year old's IQ has been multipllyy raped...wot bout d punishments given to the rapists..only 4 are caught...under this huge hipe der crime is hiding and dey wud be released with some minor punishment as evry1 is worried bout d girl's pregnancy...guys d trauma and pain of rape for a mentally challenged is just d same as a normal girl...and v shud put more light on d convicts so dey dont hide behind d hipe we ol r making...

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

priya — Sun, 02 Aug 2009 17:38:50 -0000

I find this judgement completely futile . How can a mentally challenged woman allowed to have a baby when she is not competent to raise her child . The court by allowing her to deliver the baby is adding one more orphan to the society . How can you expect any NGO to fill the place of a mother . None can take care of a child as better as a mother and the court expecting that from an institiution is something which cannot be assimilated . By chance if it is a girl child and she is left at the mercy of an institiution ..the same thing can happen to her as it happened to her mother ..sexual abuse ... How can the life of the child be secure without a parent . i dont respect this judgement sorry! . Further we are talking about the right of a woman who even dont know what a "right " is ..she cant enjoy the motherhood , she is completely unaware of the whole misfortune .

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

ekswitaj — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 19:37:05 -0000

It's fair to be concerned about the child absolutely, and without social programs that provide appropriate support the victory certainly is not a complete one.

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

rambodoc — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 13:17:57 -0000

No, I meant the comment by Ekswitaj.

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

Mahendra — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:40:48 -0000

Thanks, doc. Appreciate your taking the time. I think I agree with your opinion.

What do you mean by my linking to a commentator (E)? Do you mean a link in my post or the comments below? (All comments are by the respective people themselves).

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

rambodoc — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:36:38 -0000

I find myself in total agreement with the commentator you have linked to (E). This is a perennially troublesome ethical dilemma. Overall, I would support the Court's decision, though I don't know its rationale. The law cannot purport to decide for the mother, especially when she is not fully dependent. If the victim were raped and impregnated while in a coma or under a ventilator, what would be the right situation? Obviously, the situation would change, and the State would take full responsibility for the health and safety of the mother, as she is clearly not in a position to take a decision. This is akin to acts taken without relatives'/patient's consent by doctors in emergency/exigency, acting in 'good faith'.
You do as well as your good intentions allow, and take what comes next.
As far as fetal age and rights is concerned, I believe the mother comes first, in case of a conflict of interest, for the reasons you have already stated.

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

Mahendra — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 10:12:18 -0000

As far as I know, Indian law allows termination of pregnancy till the fetus is 20 weeks old. Hence, a fetus younger than 20 weeks (which it was in this case) does not have any legal rights.

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

Arunk — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 09:56:51 -0000

> In my opinion, there are no other human beings this
> woman’s decision affects.
I am not sure. If she is legally deemed incompetent to make this decision, then the chances of child having fend for itself, or be in someone else's care is high. So from that regard, one can argue that her decision certainly can affect many others in the very near future.

> I don’t understand how the society or the law can take
> matters into its own hands regarding the private wish of a
> pregnant woman.
Wouldnt it depend on what the (Indian) [i]law[/i] says regarding the rights of a woman vs. fetus? (what does it say? I do not know).

I mean that if we want to comment on where law has to intervene, then we must abide by what the Indian law says about the rights of a fetus. Unless you mean that laws [i]ought[/i] to not give any rights to a fetus, and thus [i]ought not[/i] intervene here (?)

Arun

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

Mahendra — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 08:50:34 -0000

Shefaly,

I can understand when the 'decision' involved concerns or is related to other human beings. In my opinion, there are no other human beings this woman's decision affects. A fetus is a potential, not an actual human being, and the woman's wish or desire in this case is entirely and solely, her own.

If it were a person who has broken the law in some respect, like the example of the hacker, then the law has to intervene. I don't understand how the society or the law can take matters into its own hands regarding the private wish of a pregnant woman.

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

Shefaly — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 07:52:55 -0000

Mahendra:

To me the whole case seems to be about how a person not deemed competent (in the legal sense of the term) of making a decision should be treated in the eyes of the law. Relatedly this news article may interest you as well.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/w...

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

Mahendra — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 02:15:24 -0000

I too am worried about the child, and there is no need to say that anyone will be celebrating - there is nothing to celebrate in this tragedy.

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

Final_Transit — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 01:53:14 -0000

I fully agree with everything you say. However, I am worried of what would happen to the baby once it is born. While we would be celebrating and partying over this honoring of rights, the baby would be left with inadequate parenting - just like millions of other babies in the country. We have too many awful parents anyway, why add another parent who is known to be a baby herself?

Sounds like a case of winning the battle but losing the war.

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

harini calamur — Thu, 30 Jul 2009 23:11:47 -0000

actually it isn't. the body is of a 18 year old the mind of a 9 year old.

this is not a woman but a child. it is appalling that she has been abused like this. it is worse that she is pregnant. and it is tragic that she is delivering the child.

i only hope that it is a boy - otherwise, given the nature of 'institutionalized care' in this country - we are asking for history to repeat itself.

i hope that the men who raped her - whether they are the 'donor' of the sperm or not - are compelled by the court to pay compensation on a monthly basis to the upkeep of the girl and her child. Since she is 18 - and the repeated rape happened prior to that maybe they can get the rapists on child rape charges !!

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

Mahendra — Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:56:41 -0000

We have comments from 7 people and votes from 9, so far. 3 for Right, 1 for Wrong, 5 for Difficult to say.

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

Mahendra — Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:54:37 -0000

I find this to be an appalling oversimplification.

This is a 19 year old woman whom we have judged to be mentally challenged.

I have not seen any mention of adoption or any plans of separating the to-be-born child from its mother. I don't think anyone should be planning anything for the baby against the mother's wishes.

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

harini calamur — Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:37:35 -0000

i was appalled by the judgment.
would you let a 9 year old have a child ??

i find the entire action taken to let the child bear the baby irresponsible and not thought through.

is a 9 year old competent to bring up the child ? if the baby is going to be given up for adoption - is the woman merely a vessel for bearing a child ?

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

Mahendra — Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:28:31 -0000

Well said, Ekswitaj. I can't add anything further. Thank you.

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

Mahendra — Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:26:41 -0000

Yes, Arun, I too think the court in this case made what can be called a pragmatic decision and you've described it nicely.

I don't think this case would have reached any court if the woman had not wanted the child.

Re: Mentally Challenged, Raped, Pregnant. Abort?

Mahendra — Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:23:58 -0000

//But using this argument to support the subject’s appeal to keep the baby, is unjustified.//
I don't understand why, and I don't agree, but for me, the specific arguments used by the lawyers is not that important. Lawyers will always try to make the best out of their case. I think it would be beneficial for us to focus on the issue in our terms rather than the arguments used by the respective lawyers.

//I also think that the anti-abortion argument is overly egoist and self-congratulatory.//
What is wrong with being egoist? I don't understand how it is self-congratulatory.

//What’s the plan to raise the baby?//
Why should we have a plan that is different from what the mother has?

//I don’t understand how a parent can be absolved of her responsibility so easily.//
The issue is not whether a parent can be absolved of such a responsibility, but whether we are allowing a woman to become a parent in the first place.

//Unfortunately, women are the victims – as always.//
I find this utterly contradictory to what you seem to be saying. If we forcefully prevent a woman from being a mother, aren't we turning her into a victim of our ideas and expectations?